To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu From: SUSAN GETGOOD Subject: Cyber Patrol and CyberNOT Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:04:01 -0800 X-Beyondmail-Priority: 1 Message-Id: Conversation-Id: Reply-To: SUSAN GETGOOD Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Precedence: normal X-Fc-Url: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ X-Fc-Url: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu Just a quick note to let you all know that we are looking into the various sites that have been asked about, and I will post results as I can. Some comments on this process: 1. The CyberNOT list was designed to be used by adults to manage children's access to the Internet. It is not a filter meant for adults. 2. Site reports that get sent to us using our established channels, a report to cybernot@microsys.com, get faster response than reports sent indirectly or to the wrong person (as in the e-mail address attached to the search engine on pathfinder). We are trying to respond as fast as we can and we appreciate your patience. Regards Susan Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 13:02:34 -0800 From: Jonathan Wallace Reply-To: jw@bway.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: SUSAN GETGOOD Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: Cyber Patrol and CyberNOT References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Precedence: normal X-Fc-Url: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ X-Fc-Url: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu The fact that you have blocked so many sites inappropriately-- mine, Nizkor, EFF, etc.--establishes that your product should not be in public libraries or other government institutions. Although I understand the company not being willing to walk away from a customer, I suspect you have substantial private doubts about whether this will stand up. You said Cyberpatrol is not intended to govern what adults can see. I think this is exactly what it is being used to do in public libraries. SUSAN GETGOOD wrote: > > Just a quick note to let you all know that we are looking into the various > sites that have been asked about, and I will post results as I can. > > Some comments on this process: > > 1. The CyberNOT list was designed to be used by adults to manage children's > access to the Internet. It is not a filter meant for adults. > > 2. Site reports that get sent to us using our established channels, a report to > cybernot@microsys.com, get faster response than reports sent indirectly or to > the wrong person (as in the e-mail address attached to the search engine on > pathfinder). > > We are trying to respond as fast as we can and we appreciate your patience. > > Regards > Susan -- ----------------------------------------------- Jonathan Wallace The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org Co-author, Sex, Laws and Cyberspace http://www.spectacle.org/freespch/ "We must be the change we wish to see in the world."--Gandhi Message-Id: <199703041811.NAA01776@arutam.inch.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Michael Sims" To: SUSAN GETGOOD Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:08:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Cyber Patrol and CyberNOT Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Precedence: normal X-Fc-Url: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ X-Fc-Url: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu SUSAN GETGOOD wrote: > 1. The CyberNOT list was designed to be used by adults to manage > children's access to the Internet. It is not a filter meant for > adults. Yes, your site states that "In evaluating a site for inclusion in the list, we consider the effect of the site on a typical twelve year old searching the Internet unaccompanied by a parent or educator." On the other hand, you market your product to collegiate-level schools, governments, and corporations. You make a corporate version, and a *proxy server*, using the same NOT list. How many groups of 12-year-olds use their own proxy server? How many work at a corporation? Isn't there a bit of a difference here? Which are we to believe, your words or your actions? It seems to me as if you are trying to deflect criticism of the extensive scope of your list by claiming it's for 12-year-olds, while simultaneously attempting to maximize profits by selling to anyone with the dollars in hand. "Not meant for adults" is a great statement from a PR rep. Do your salespeople say the same thing? -- Michael Sims Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:41:03 -0500 (EST) From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan@well.com To: Michael Sims Cc: SUSAN GETGOOD , fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: Cyber Patrol and CyberNOT In-Reply-To: <199703041811.NAA01776@arutam.inch.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Precedence: normal X-Fc-Url: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ X-Fc-Url: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu Below Michael points out that Susan Getgood talks publicly of censorware for children, but in truth sells it to corporations to restrict what adults can see. I would contribute to this discussion an excerpt from a Microsystems press release. (Note I don't disagree with their right to sell this censorware, nor do I believe firms should be barred from installing it. If you don't like it, don't work there.) -Declan Linkname: Microsystems announces flurry of strategic partnerships URL: http://www.microsys.com/prfiles/pr996.htm September 24, 1996, FRAMINGHAM, Massachusetts - Microsystems Software Inc. announced today that through a series of business deals completed during the last six weeks the company's filtering technology is now available to most Americans surfing the Net. Since early August, the privately-held company has announced partnerships with America Online, Acer America, Bell Atlantic, Continental Cablevision and Scholastic Network. These deals followed others with CompuServe, Prodigy, AT&T, British Telecom and Raptor, which selected Cyber Patrol technology for its corporate firewalls. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The partnerships mean that Cyber Patrol is the exclusive technology available to about 85 percent of all Americans using the Internet. [...] On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Michael Sims wrote: > SUSAN GETGOOD wrote: > > > 1. The CyberNOT list was designed to be used by adults to manage > > children's access to the Internet. It is not a filter meant for > > adults. > > Yes, your site states that "In evaluating a site for inclusion in the > list, we consider the effect of the site on a typical twelve year old > searching the Internet unaccompanied by a parent or educator." > > On the other hand, you market your product to collegiate-level > schools, governments, and corporations. You make a corporate > version, and a *proxy server*, using the same NOT list. How > many groups of 12-year-olds use their own proxy server? How many > work at a corporation? Isn't there a bit of a difference here? > > Which are we to believe, your words or your actions? It seems to me > as if you are trying to deflect criticism of the extensive scope of > your list by claiming it's for 12-year-olds, while simultaneously > attempting to maximize profits by selling to anyone with the dollars > in hand. > > "Not meant for adults" is a great statement from a PR rep. Do your > salespeople say the same thing? > > > -- Michael Sims > To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu From: SUSAN GETGOOD Subject: Re: Cyber Patrol and CyberNOT Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:11:40 -0800 X-Beyondmail-Priority: 1 Message-Id: Conversation-Id: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: SUSAN GETGOOD Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu Precedence: normal X-Fc-Url: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ X-Fc-Url: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu --BeyondBoundary_2_Tue_Mar_04_14:11:42_1997__4823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Corporations install Internet filtering for a number of reasons. Primarily they are interested in addressing productivity and liability issues. Using the CyberNOT list, which is geared toward protecting children from inappropriate material, is consistent with a corporation's desire to prevent employees from engaging in "Fun" surfing during work hours and to protect itself against possible sexual harassment suits. For adults, Playboy is fine for home, not fine for the office (unless you happen to work there.) regards susan > From: Declan McCullagh , on 3/4/97 1:49 PM: > Below Michael points out that Susan Getgood talks publicly of censorware > for children, but in truth sells it to corporations to restrict what > adults can see. > > I would contribute to this discussion an excerpt from a Microsystems > press release. > > (Note I don't disagree with their right to sell this censorware, nor do I > believe firms should be barred from installing it. If you don't like it, > don't work there.) > > -Declan > > > Linkname: Microsystems announces flurry of strategic partnerships > URL: http://www.microsys.com/prfiles/pr996.htm > > September 24, 1996, > > FRAMINGHAM, Massachusetts - Microsystems Software Inc. announced today > that through a series of business deals completed during the last six > weeks the company's filtering technology is now available to most > Americans surfing the Net. > > Since early August, the privately-held company has announced > partnerships with America Online, Acer America, Bell Atlantic, > Continental Cablevision and Scholastic Network. These deals followed > others with CompuServe, Prodigy, AT&T, British Telecom and Raptor, > which selected Cyber Patrol technology for its corporate firewalls. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > The partnerships mean that Cyber Patrol is the exclusive technology > available to about 85 percent of all Americans using the Internet. > > [...] > > > > On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Michael Sims wrote: > > > SUSAN GETGOOD wrote: > > > > > 1. The CyberNOT list was designed to be used by adults to manage > > > children's access to the Internet. It is not a filter meant for > > > adults. > > > > Yes, your site states that "In evaluating a site for inclusion in the > > list, we consider the effect of the site on a typical twelve year old > > searching the Internet unaccompanied by a parent or educator." > > > > On the other hand, you market your product to collegiate-level > > schools, governments, and corporations. You make a corporate > > version, and a *proxy server*, using the same NOT list. How > > many groups of 12-year-olds use their own proxy server? How many > > work at a corporation? Isn't there a bit of a difference here? > > > > Which are we to believe, your words or your actions? It seems to me > > as if you are trying to deflect criticism of the extensive scope of > > your list by claiming it's for 12-year-olds, while simultaneously > > attempting to maximize profits by selling to anyone with the dollars > > in hand. > > > > "Not meant for adults" is a great statement from a PR rep. Do your > > salespeople say the same thing? > > > > > > -- Michael Sims > > > >